#288 – Daredevil’s Gray Morality and Emotional Hooks: Storytelling Insights for Writers
Welcome to Episode 288 of the Spun Today Podcast with Tony Ortiz, where creativity takes the spotlight and storytelling is always at the heart of the conversation. In this episode, Tony dives deep into the writing brilliance of the Daredevil TV series, exploring seasons one through four and unearthing valuable insights every writer and creative can appreciate. From the artful mirroring of hero and villain to the series’ thoughtful examination of moral ambiguity, Tony unpacks the narrative craft that elevates Daredevil beyond the typical superhero genre.
But that’s not all—Tony also shares his experience attending Jeff Ross’s one-man Broadway show, offering a peek behind the curtain into comedy, resilience, and the importance of seizing the moment. And in his ongoing segment “Goats Doing Goat Shit,” he pays tribute to trailblazers Matt Stone and Trey Parker for their game-changing moves with South Park.
Tune in for practical writing takeaways, reflections on character, layered backstories, and the power of authentic detail—all through an inspiring, creative lens. Whether you’re a writer, a lover of great stories, or just someone chasing the next spark of inspiration, this episode is packed with gems to fuel your craft.
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Daredevil: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3322312/?ref_=ttfc_ov_bk
Daredevil Born Again: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt18923754/?ref_=ttfc_ov_bk
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Transcript
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Transcript 〰️
Tony Ortiz [00:00:00]:
And the show constantly forces you to see them as two sides of the same coin. And that's really good story writing right there. When your hero and your villain basically are mirror images of each other, you don't get just good versus evil, black and white. You get a meditation on choice, on morality. And you get to see how two different people, two different personalities, can internalize a very similar trauma, very relatable pains. And you get to see what it is that they do with it. What's up? What's up folks? What's going on? And welcome to the Sponsor Day Podcast, the only podcast that is anchored in writing but unlimited in scope. I'm your host, Tony Ortiz, and I appreciate you listening.
Tony Ortiz [00:01:01]:
This is episode 288 of the Spun Today Podcast and in this episode I am going to be speaking about the Daredevil TV series from season one all the way through season four. And I'm going to be sharing a ton of writing insights, gems and takeaways for my fellow writers and creatives out there. So definitely stick around for that. I'm also going to speak about going to see the Roast Master himself, Jeff Ross, in his limited run on Broadway, one man show. Stick around to find out if I got roasted and I'll give you a hint. I was in the second row. And last but not least, in another addition to your favorite segment in mind, we will be inducting another member onto the Goats Doing Goat Shit list. Please stick around for all that good stuff.
Tony Ortiz [00:01:54]:
But first I wanted to tell you all about a quick way that you can help support this show. Your support means a ton. By way of motivation to continue putting out these episodes, your support also helps to keep the proverbial lights on here at Spun Today Studios. So aside from visiting spunteray.com support for a bunch of different ways that you can help, here's one way that will go a long way and then we'll jump right into the episode. If you're a fellow creative, a cool way that you can help support the Spun Today Podcast and actually be part of the podcast is by filling out my five question questionnaire located@spuntoday.com questionnaire. Here you'll find five open questions related to your craft, your art, what inspired you to create, what type of unrelated hobbies you're into, and what motivates you to get your work done. You can choose to remain anonymous or plug your website and your work. And once you submit your questionnaire, I read your responses on a future episode of the Sponsor Day Podcast.
Tony Ortiz [00:02:57]:
It's completely free at no cost to you. And what I like to say about it is that if your responses could potentially spark inspiration in someone else, why not share that spun2date.com questionnaire the Daredevil TV series originally aired from 2015 to 2018. That time period gave us seasons one through three. Then in 2025 season four came out, which actually picked up where season three left off. And for those who may not know, the series is based on the Marvel comic book character Daredevil, where, quote, a blind lawyer by day and vigilante by night, Matt Murdock fights the crime of New York as Daredevil. End quote. As we like to do here on the Spot Today podcast, let's give a shout out to the writers. And there are a bunch, especially when you factor in all four seasons as well as the comic book creators of the character.
Tony Ortiz [00:04:00]:
But bear with me, because these writers definitely do deserve their flowers. Let's start off first and foremost with the late great Stan Lee, who absolutely deserves his own applause break there, followed by Bill Everett, Drew Goddard, Luke Kaltue, Ruth Fletcher, Christos N. Gage, Whit Anderson, Sneha Course, Dylan Gallagher, Tanya Kang, Sarah Stryker, Douglas Petri, Marco Ramirez, Stephen S. Denight, Lauren Schmidt Hissrich, Eric Olson, Joe Pokowski, John C. Kelly, Mark Ver, Jim Dunn, Sam Ernst, Dara Resnick, Tamara Boettcher, Sone Hoffman, Niwa Nasserdine, Wally Wood, Matt Corman, Chris Ord we're almost getting there, folks. Dario Scartepane, Katherine Blair, Devin Kliger, Jill Blankenship, Jesse Wigato, Heather Belson, David Fahge, Durrain Godfrey, and last but certainly not least, Thomas Wong. Shout out to each and every one of the writers that put this amazing series together. The main focus of this breakdown has to do with how the writing uses moral ambiguity, emotional backstory and world building to make the story resonate beyond the comic book genre.
Tony Ortiz [00:05:42]:
So if that interests you, please stick around. Daredevil isn't just another Marvel superhero movie, but or show rather. What struck me while watching seasons one through four, especially the first three, which came out almost a decade ago, is how much it plays like a gritty crime drama first and a comic book story second. Thought it was really ahead of its time in that regard. The tone of the series is much darker than what you would expect from a comic book superhero series. There's cursing and blood and violence, and it's really a masterclass in writing, creativity and storytelling. And the very beginning of the series sets the tone. Matt Murdock's character, AKA Daredevil, played by Charlie Cox.
Tony Ortiz [00:06:29]:
His origin story is tragic, like a lot of heroes. But in his case, he gets blinded as a kid by these toxic chemicals. And he did so by saving, like, an old man's life that he saw was going to get hurt by them. And the last thing that he saw before losing his eyesight forever was his father rushing to his side. And that detail alone is such a powerful hook. The idea that the final image burned into his memory is his dad, the man that he'll spend the rest of his life trying to live up to. And then, of course, fast forwarding a bit. His father, Sacrifice was an amateur boxer refusing to throw a fight so that his son can see him win cleanly, only for him to get killed by the mob, leaving his son, who was already without a mother, now blind and without a father.
Tony Ortiz [00:07:21]:
So from Jump, you realize that Daredevil is about the cost of honor and the sense of morality that the series wrestles with throughout and how individual trauma shapes us. And what is a good superhero story without a great villain? Right? And what makes it even more of a brilliant series is how Matt's backstory mirrors his villain's backstory. Wilson Fisk, AKA the Kingpin, played by the illustrious Vincent d', Onofrio, as a kid, killed his own father. He was like this meek little kid and he had a really abusive father that was always like, pushing him and like, forcing him to, like, stand up for himself to the point that he, like, would beat him up and then go with him to beat up the bullies that beat up his son. His father, Bill Fisk, played by another great actor, Dominic Lombardozo, as a young kid, just snaps at his father's abuse. This time he was like, abusing his mom to stand up for his mom. Hits his father in the back of the head with a hammer and just doesn't stop until he's non responsive. And then the mother, half in shock and half relieved because this monster that abused them both for years is now dead.
Tony Ortiz [00:08:42]:
She winds up helping her son cover it up, which imprinted in his mind that he did something good, something positive. He protected his mother. It was validating the action, as violent and gruesome and horrible as it was. And then he carries that trauma forward in his own way. And the show constantly forces you to see them as two sides of the same coin. And that's really good story writing right there. When your hero and your villain basically are mirror images of each other, you don't get just good versus evil, black and white. You Get a meditation on choice, on morality, and you get to see how two different people, two different personalities, can internalize a very similar trauma, very relatable pains.
Tony Ortiz [00:09:34]:
And get to see what it is that they do with it. By season two, the storytelling deepens with the introduction of another iconic Marvel character, Frank Castle, AKA the Punisher, played by the great Jon Bernthal. And his character is so good that there's a spin off series, the Punisher, which I also began watching for the first time with his character. And that takes place within the same world. But the introduction of his character into this series was genius. His character and Matt's character, they want the exact same thing, which is justice. But they couldn't be more different with how they want to get there. Daredevil, although he beats the shit out of the bad guys, he refuses to kill, he has like that Batman esque type moral code where he can't kill.
Tony Ortiz [00:10:23]:
Plus by day he's a lawyer. And his idea of justice, and we see it get more and more jaded as the series progresses, but is to use the law to get justice and put the bad guy, the bad guys behind bars. Whereas on the flip side, the Punisher doesn't hesitate to kill any and every bad guy. He's a kill first, don't even bother asking questions later type of dude. And he has his own code where he's utterly ruthless, but only towards bad guys. But then you fall into that like moral ambiguity of who is it that gets to the decide who's bad and who's good. And his character, Daredevil's butt head. Butt heads rather throughout season two on this very topic.
Tony Ortiz [00:11:10]:
And there's this great scene that takes place at a cemetery where we get a bit of insight into Punishers mysterious character. And he gives this monologue which I'll get into in a bit, but where essentially he tells us about losing his family. And it's haunting and it makes you understand him and why he is the way he is, even if you don't agree with how he goes about getting his version of justice. And that's the type of gray morality that really kept me hooked into the series. And then to mix things up even more, the writers did a phenomenal job with how they actually have Punisher and Fisk work together temporarily out of necessity because they hate each other. You know, Fisk is like the quintessential bad guy. You know, he's the kingpin, pulling all the strings with all the evil that's going on. So they're definitely at odds.
Tony Ortiz [00:12:04]:
But For a brief moment, their interests align. And that's such a great writing move. To complicate alliances, to muddy the morality, to make the. To put the heroes in situations where they have to team up up with villains and vice versa. And not necessarily because they want to, but because the story demands it. The situation that was created demands it. That's top tier tension right there. We also have a great character in Foggy Nelson, played by Eldon Henson, which is Matt Murdock's college law school best friend and now partner.
Tony Ortiz [00:12:41]:
And he's like the physical manifestation of what keeps Matt's faith in the law, in the legal system. He's also one of the first, if not the first character in the series to learn about Matt's double life, his secret identity as Daredevil. Then by the time we get to season three, the series starts peeling back layers. Through backstory, we find out that Fisk is manipulating an FBI agent known as Benjamin Point Dexter, AKA Dex, played by Wilson Bethel. And the way they visually show Fisk, like reading his case files while we see flashbacks into Dex's like troubled childhood and how he was like a sociopath since he was little, a really troubled kid in therapy, but excelled in whenever he was in environment. In an environment with a specific rigid framework like the military, like the FBI, the corporate environment even worked for him for some time. But it's like a double edged sword because we find when put into a negative version of that rigid framework such as organized crime, and essentially given the license and cover to kill and do crime. He also excels at that.
Tony Ortiz [00:14:08]:
He's a really interesting character in the series. And you have Karen Page's character, played by Deborah Ann Wall, who becomes a paralegal at first for Matt and Foggy when they open up their fledgling law firm and then pivots to being like this sidekick slash reporter and we find that her character in time, we find that she's carrying a shitload of trauma and guilt and regret that we realize shape her choices throughout the series. Which is a really good reminder for us as writers that if you want your characters to feel real, give them scars. Like, don't be afraid to darken their past, even if it's not something that's revealed right away or revealed at all. I also enjoyed how the series specifically where I noticed it more, wasn't season four, but where it leans into realism with all these, like, small cultural details that just made this fantastical superhero landscape feel more grounded and realistic. Some examples of which, which I'll admit in advance, I'M a bit biased too, would be the Dominican flag hanging up in the gym, which is the same gym Matt's father used to box at. And now I believe Matt owns it or owns the space, even though it doesn't operate as a gym anymore. There was also a scene with Bustelo Coffee, which is my go to coffee of choice, what we have here at home, and the Greca, which is the first time I've seen a Greca.
Tony Ortiz [00:15:38]:
It's like a stovetop percolator. That's also what I used to make coffee. That was dope to see in the series. There's some powerful social commentary about the legal system, crime and poverty, some of which I'll circle back to. But it's just that that level of grounding detail that helps keep a genre story like this one from floating away into just being fantasy and fantastical superhero stuff. And of course, I'd be remiss if I didn't highlight the great John Wick level brutal violence within the series. It's really action packed and I thought they did a great job with it, for example. And some, some, some of which is very unexpected.
Tony Ortiz [00:16:23]:
It kind of takes you off guard. But like Wilson Fisk snapping at some someone that something up and they were in his car or in the suv and he grabs the person, just starts hitting him and then puts his head, opens the car door, puts his head there and just slams the car door on the person's head until there's literally no more head. Then you have this other amazing scene where someone at a, you know, lower level on the totem pole within Fisk's crime syndicate organization, Daredevil, gets to him and beats him up into divulging that he works for Fisk. But instead of facing the consequences of if and when Fisk finds out that he gave up his name, he knows that Fisk would then get retribution on him and his family. The guy just gets up after getting fucked up by Daredevil, who's a very talented martial artist by the way, and tells him something to the effect of what Fisk would do to him is way worse than anything else. And the guy just takes himself and like headbutts this metal rod spike sticking out of like a concrete wall, just headbutts himself into it through his eye and kills himself standing up. It was sick. I rewatched that scene a couple times.
Tony Ortiz [00:17:51]:
I was just like. It was so unexpected. I was like, what? You have another scene later on in the series where Fisk takes the police commissioner, which he has since blackmailed. But he's having like a change of heart and not wanting to follow suit with Fisk and his dealings and helping them out. And Fisk just literally takes his head and squeezes it because they depict him as having like this not superhuman strength, but just extremely strong big dude. And he just grabs him by the skull and just squeezes and squeezes and squeezes until he like breaks his whole fucking face. His skulls just caves it in on both sides and rips his jaw off of his face at the same time. It was just like, holy fuck.
Tony Ortiz [00:18:42]:
You do not see some of these things coming. And these aren't just shock moments. They are shock moments, but they aren't just that. They're like narrative turning points. Whenever these peaks of violence occur, there are changes in relationships, there are shifts in alliances, and the situations force different characters that witness them or they are affected by them. It forces them into like, new moral territory. So a few high level takeaways for myself and fellow writers out there that I got from the Daredevil series would be, first, to mirror your hero and villain so that they reflect each other's wounds. Second.
Tony Ortiz [00:19:25]:
And if I had to rank these, I'd probably rank this one as like. Most important in this type of storytelling is to embrace the gray morality. It's way more compelling to have gray, gray, morally ambiguous characters than having just black and white good vers, evil type characters. And third, sprinkle backstory throughout, like present action so that the payoff of the knowledge of those backstories feels earned versus just like dumped via exposition. And actually one more, which is don't underestimate the power of like, really small, authentic details, even if most folks don't catch it. Just like, I'm sure a bunch of those that stood out to me, like the Dominican flag and bustedo coffee and the Greca and stuff like that, are things that like, resonated with me. But I'm sure there were a bunch of other, whether it be cultural or otherwise, elements that just didn't necessarily resonate with me, but that did with other folks that watch the show. They probably had that same effect on them as those things had on me.
Tony Ortiz [00:20:37]:
Now let's dive a little bit deeper related to character origins and emotional hooks. The initial trauma that we see Matt's character go through is the blinding accident and the act of heroism that he committed by saving the old man that was about to get hurt from these barrels of like toxic chemicals that were falling off of a truck. I believe it was. But that act of heroism Planted the seed which had the lasting consequences of his vigilante heroism in the future. There was also a scene early on in the series where he's in a church confessional booth, this church that he frequents. And later it's revealed that it's actually the foster home of the church that he grew up in once his dad was killed. So he has this bond with the priest of the church, the father of the church. But he gives this jaded monologue while in the confessional booth.
Tony Ortiz [00:21:40]:
All around faith and guilt, justice and good versus evil, and asking for forgiveness for things that he's going to do. And it kind of sets the moral tone for the series. And then we have his father's sacrifice where his father chose honor over survival. He knew very well that he was gonna get killed for doing what he did. He had an arrangement with the mob where he would throw fights and the mob would bet against him for specific rounds where he would throw fights. You know, he would obviously get his ass kicked. He'll make money. And it was like steady income.
Tony Ortiz [00:22:22]:
But he kind of had this chip on his shoulder about it because he wanted and could win a lot of those fights. And Matt, at the time, his son was a little boy. He didn't know about this. These are arrangements with the mob. He just thought his dad, you know, won some in law and lost some. But his father chose honor over survival and that he wanted his son to see him win versus the outcome of what he knew was gonna happen, because the mob was gonna lose a shitload of money if he did that. And that honor verse survival dynamic we see mirrored in Matt's later struggles throughout the entire series. And a great writing insight to take away is that starting with formative trauma creates immediate emotional investment.
Tony Ortiz [00:23:07]:
And then adding to that, having your villain parallel and mirror your protagonist is also a great tool. But we have Fisk, for example, who has an abusive father, not a loving father. But with what happened with Fisk killing his own father as a kid, he winds up in this very similar orphan like situation as Matt does. And it humanizes him in a way. Like once that's revealed, you're like, oh, this kid is all screwed up from when he was little. And then it kind of like gives license, gives much more understanding to how it is that he became who he became. And it serves as a way to deepen that hero villain connection. Now diving into gray morality and complicated alliances, which I thought the introduction of the Punisher's character did so very impressively and very poignantly.
Tony Ortiz [00:24:02]:
He And Daredevil have this moral red line in the sand where Daredevil has a no kill stance against bad guys and Punisher has a kill them twice if you can stance. And now, circling back to that cemetery monologue that I mentioned earlier, where we get more insight into his character and why he has this bloodlust. He tells Red, as he calls Daredevil, this story about returning home from war, he was a Marine. And surprising his daughter at school. And then spending days with her, reading to her, and then ultimately having to hold her lifeless body in his arms because she and his son and his wife all got murdered in front of him. And when you have a backstory like that in a character, you're like, may not agree with the approach, but I get it. Then you have another complicated alliance in a character by the name of Elektra Nachios, played by Elodie Young. Now, Electra's character I remember from the comic books, and in this series, she plays like the old flame of Matz, definitely one that has his number emotionally.
Tony Ortiz [00:25:21]:
And she grew up very similar, orphaned, mentored by the same person stick, which I'll speak about in a bit. But she doesn't have the same moral compass that Matt does. She's a paid assassin. She's involved in corporate espionage. She's all about riches and has, like, no qualms about it. And a writing insight that these characters definitely highlight is that moral gray areas force the audience to question their own values. And we as writers can deepen the stakes of a story by pairing characters with similar goals but opposite methods. Like, for example, a Daredevil and a Punisher, or a Punisher and a Wilson Fisk, or Daredevil and an Electra, so on and so forth.
Tony Ortiz [00:26:07]:
And circling back to the alliance between Punisher and Fisk, which I mentioned earlier, the temporary alliance, just to expand on it a bit, is that they were these two enemies that were working together for a temporary amount of time because their goals overlap, knowing that they were going to clash again in the future. And the situation was essentially that Fisk gave the Punisher an opportunity for him to avenge his families that death. So the literal origin of his bloodlust, that he now has to go like scorched earth on all bad guys, especially having to do with the death of his family, Fisk facilitates him being able to do so. And the benefit for Fisk is that a lot of the people that he points the Punisher towards are his competition within the criminal underbelly. And both of them essentially agree to this. Alliance, but with the understanding that once this temporary period is over, it's back to on site. Now speak a bit about layering backstories and the depth of certain characters. The way they did this with the dynamic between Fisk and FBI Agent Dex is that they used flashback scenes sprinkled throughout the present day so you knew where things were going to end up as the story progressed.
Tony Ortiz [00:27:46]:
But it also ratcheted up the suspense because you're learning about certain elements from his past while following spirit specific actions in his present. And that was just a great creative way to show Fisk's ability to manipulate even someone as high up as like an FBI agent and kind of bring them into his fold while also showing us what Agent Dex was capable of. Then probably one of the craziest backstories in the series was Karen's Karen Page's tragic past, which for us as the audience complicates her like idealistic bend that we come to know in the series while also making us understand how it fuels her risk aversion or not risk aversion, but her. It fuels her risky choices that she makes throughout the series. And her backstory is essentially how mother dies of cancer. Her, her father, brother and herself are left with the carrying on the family business, which is this fledgling hole in the wall diner that she's the unofficial glue for keeping everything together. She also has this druggie boyfriend and likes to party and she does drugs and sells drugs with the boyfriend. Kind of her way to unwind like just the stress and tension of keeping everything up on the family front but also wanting more.
Tony Ortiz [00:29:21]:
And she's really smart but puts off going to college because of the death of the mother and this feeling of being like anchored to home to help the father and brother. And they kind of sort of push her into going to college, to going away. But more so because the folks father also wants to get her away from this like druggie boyfriend. And it all comes to a head when she gets home like drunk and high with the boyfriend who's also drunk and high. And the brother confronts the boyfriend and tells him to like stay away from her. They get into a fight but the boyfriend is, you know, it's not just like a shoving match type of fight or you know, a couple punches thrown. Like the boyfriend is like him off and about to hurt him, like grabs a, a bat or like something. And Karen grabs the boyfriend's gun from the car and shoots her boyfriend who's about to like really up her brother shoots him like in the shoulder of the arm.
Tony Ortiz [00:30:18]:
And then to, you know, they hop in the car, Karen and her brother, to get away from the guy, and they're, like, speeding away. And remember, she's, like, drunk and high. She winds up getting into a car accident that kills her brother. Tell me that's not fucked up and dark. And then the cherry on top is that after that happens, I think the boyfriend did wind up dying, if I'm not mistaken, or at the very least, like, getting arrested. But it's a small town. The, like, the sheriff was cool with the dad. They kind of, like, cover up what happened and that it was technically Karen's fault, you know, the death of her brother.
Tony Ortiz [00:31:01]:
They ruled it all on accident. And the father, the cherry on top is that the father disowns her and tells her, you know, go away, do what you want with your life, but get the out of here, basically. And that's all backstory that, once revealed, once we peel back those layers, we have such a different understanding of Karen's character and the choices that she's made thus far. Far. And that she continues to make throughout the series. Then you have Ray Nadeem's character, another FBI agent played by J. Ali. He's like this good man trapped in a corrupt system.
Tony Ortiz [00:31:36]:
Fisk and Dex compromise him. And, you know, he has a wife and a small kid, and because of that fear of what could happen to them, goes along, but then regrets it and winds up going to the chief of the FBI in this, like, private meeting at her house with, like, the legal rep from the FBI. He, like, calls this meeting to tell her everything, that he and Dex are compromised because of Wilson Fisk, so on and so forth. And then the. His boss, the agent, shoots in her kitchen, by the way. They're sitting in her kitchen, and her kid just went off to school. School. She shoots that legal rep in the head, and it's revealed that even she's working for Fisk.
Tony Ortiz [00:32:21]:
Even she's compromised. So Ray Nadeem's character is, like, caught between a rock and a hard place where he's like, I came clean. And now my boss is even corrupted by all this. It's just a great writing insight to take away from those backstories. Is that layering in backstories and, you know, using flashback scenes into the present narrative instead of just, like, dumping it all at once. It keeps the tension high throughout your story and definitely rewards attentive readers and viewers. However it is that you're telling your story. And I wanted to shout out a few other notable characters And a few lines of dialogue from some of them, starting with Ben Urich, played by Von D Curtis Hall.
Tony Ortiz [00:33:08]:
He's like the OG Walter Cronkite, like, investigative reporter that takes Karen's Paige's character under his wing and that's where she gets like the reporting bug and ultimately winds up becoming a reporter from there on out. But he tells her the this line that I really liked, which was, quote, that in his experience, there are no heroes, no villains, just people with different agendas. Then you have this character called Stick. He is the mentor for Matt when Matt was a child, Stick, played by Scott Glenn. He's also, it's revealed later on in the series, the mentor for Elektra as well. And everything about him is not yet fully told. As I remember it. It's like the series is definitely going to come to a head with him involved in some way, shape or form.
Tony Ortiz [00:34:01]:
But he essentially like brought Matt up, taught him all the martial arts that he knows, nurtured him into heightening his other senses because he is also blind. And he tells him this dope line during training, which is that anger is a spark and rage is a wildfire, and both are useless if you can't control it. There's a cool character that I liked called James Wesley, played by Toby Leonard Moore. He's the right hand man to Kingpin. He's his assistant. He's his best friend. He's the ultimate facilitator. He would do everything from recommending wines so that Fisk could look good on a date requesting that wine, to handling all his dirty work and meetings and everything under the sun.
Tony Ortiz [00:34:50]:
And I liked how they used the dynamic of his best friend and partner, Foggy that I mentioned earlier. And they use that relationship dynamic between that relationship as an exposition tool to explain more of how Matt went from being that little blind kid, the scared blind kid, to Daredevil because of the fact that Foggy was like so pissed off that he never told them and that he's doing it in the first place. He's worried about his friend getting hurt and just full of shitload of questions. So as he asks those questions, we get answers to Matt's past sprinkled throughout. And it's this great line that Matt says to his new legal partner, this is later on in season four to Kirsten, when he's like really frustrated about how things are going, the legal system, the fact that point that Stir went to jail on the then get out of jail. He delivers this great line that I liked where he says, quote, we're not contributing to justice here, which is babysitting chaos. I thought that was great. Now, a bit about subtle world building and realism we touched on earlier, like those cultural details.
Tony Ortiz [00:36:05]:
Certain things that I picked up on, like the Dominican flag at the gym, the Bustelo coffee, the Greca, things like that help in grounding the world in authentic touches or with authentic touches, rather. Matt also goes out on a date with a girl and he shouts out Sal and Chris and Charlie's while he's on this blind date with her, which, if you don't know, is probably the greatest sandwich spot. Definitely in Queens. I would probably say in New York at least that I've had to date and I've got there multiple times. If you haven't gone, he's a. A reco for you. Look up Sal and Chris. Chris spelled with a K, so K, R, I, S.
Tony Ortiz [00:36:49]:
It's called Sal, Chris and Charlie's. It looks like a regular, like bodega, but they're known for their sandwiches. Go. You're going to be online for a while, but it's. It's worth the wait. And it's not a too crazy of a line, but you will be on the line. But the turnover is like, really quick. Grab some chips, grab.
Tony Ortiz [00:37:08]:
Grab yourself a beverage. You'll see the menu there of the different types of sandwiches that they have. And then take your sandwiches to Astoria park, which is a nice park right under the Triborough Bridge, I believe it is, and a nice view of the water. I've done it with wifey. I've done it with wifey and the kids multiple times. And just chill there, eat your sandwich. Taking the views. It's nice now in the summertime, even in the fall, the spring, highly, highly recommend.
Tony Ortiz [00:37:39]:
But anyway, Matt shouts out Sal and Chris, which was definitely dope to, to hear. So that was a nice grounding detail that, you know, made this world feel more realistic. And there was this great scene where Matt is kind of going through the motions and helping this. He has this like pro bono case, like, drop on his lap and he's like preoccupied mentally thinking about vigilante shit. And there was a shoplifter guy who he's trying to convince, to plead, to plead out and just take the five days in jail, slap on the wrist type of thing, which he negotiated down from like a year or two that they wanted to give this guy because he was like a repeat offender. And the guy's pushing back, saying, I'm not. I'm not doing five days. Yeah, I stole the fucking Food because he stole some food from a supermarket.
Tony Ortiz [00:38:34]:
And Matt is kind of taken aback because he's like, you know, this like high powered attorney at this point. And he like takes this case, negotiates this sweetheart deal for this guy that should be like over the moon thanking him. And the guy's pushing back and telling him to do more, to do his job better. And he's kind of like, what the. But the guy Leroy, played by Charlie Hudson iii, delivered this like little monologue to Matt telling him that his SSI and food stamps were cut off. And like when he went to find out why, couldn't get a straight answer. And then his meeting was rescheduled and really gave this like, his case fell through the cracks and now he's without food type of story. And he says this line which really resonated with me, which is that they're willing to spend five times more to lock me up than to feed me and I'm supposed to be thankful.
Tony Ortiz [00:39:36]:
And just hearing that like sh shifted Matt's perspective like in the moment and kind of like snapped him out of that preoccupation that he was in and was a salient point. It was a interesting social commentary on that particular aspect of the system and poverty. And a definite writing insight to take away from that is that small, authentic details like that give these genre stories a lot, little bit of real world texture and they definitely go a long way. One more point that I wanted to say about like all the like the high stakes and the brutality and the violence throughout the series, like I mentioned earlier, is that from a writing perspective, these like darker genres, the type of violence that we see works best in my opinion, when it changes the trajectory of the story or of a character or shifts their understanding about something. It's not just like violence for violence sakes. It forces the characters into like new moral territory. I think that's the main like writing insight to take away from those type of visceral, violent moments. Aside from just like the adrenaline jolt as an audience member of watching these action packed scenes, a few more high level themes and takeaways for my fellow writers out there are the duality of a hero and a villain.
Tony Ortiz [00:41:02]:
So how Matt and Fisk are mirror images of each other, both shaped by trauma, but defined by the choices that they make and how they decide to move forward in the world. Conflict layering is another good one where there's multiple facets throughout the story that are at odds with each other. You have the legal system and the law verse, vigilantes and vigilante justice. You have different gangs verse corrupt institutions, corrupt cops. You have personal loyalty within characters verse moral duty within characters. Another good one is the moral evolution of our characters, like the Punisher and his bloodthirsty approach to getting some semblance of justice, Tra's moral slipperiness, Karen's character and how all of those characters force Matt's character, the Daredevil's character, to reevaluate his own code in different ways and pacing big reveals. We learn about the Punisher's tragic past like I broke down earlier. We learn about Karen's backstory story.
Tony Ortiz [00:42:16]:
We even find out in the series what happened to Matt's mother shout out to Sister Maggie, played by Joan Wally, which was definitely a holy shit moment in the series. And all those big reveals are strategically placed throughout the series for a maximum emotional payoff for us, the viewers. That's definitely something for us as writers to take away, to try to do within our own stories. And watching this series for me definitely shows that superhero storytelling can be elevated through like moral complexity and cultural specificity, layered human drama and trauma. And I just wanted to ask my dear listeners out there, which Daredevil storyline hits you the hardest? Well, was it Matt's moral struggles? Was it Wilson Fisk's rise? Was it the Punisher's grief? Or something else altogether? Hit me up and let me know. And the final takeaway for my fellow writers out there is that the best action stories aren't just about who wins the fight. They're about what's at stake internally when the fighting stops. Check out Daredevil seasons one through three as well as season four, Daredevil Born again, streaming now on Disney plus.
Tony Ortiz [00:43:41]:
Getting to see Jeff Ross on Broadway My wife and I got to see Jeff Ross's latest show. I was about to say it was a night out on the town, but it was actually an afternoon out, which was one of my favorite parts of going, which was that it was a 3pm show because I'm an old head and I like whatever activity it is that I do. I like to be done with it and back at home by like 6 7pm so Jeff Ross clearly knows his audience and there also were later shows. But I definitely appreciate the the 3pm slot. It's a limited series, eight week only show that's on Broadway. Jeff Ross is a legendary comedian. He is the roast master General. You know, he's known for all the Comedy Central roasts and just roasting in general.
Tony Ortiz [00:44:32]:
His stand up comedy specials. I think I broke down on here, the one that he did with David Tell called Bumping Mics, which is great. So when I saw this opportunity, I definitely had to jump on it. Here is a bit about the show. Legendary comic Jeff Ross returns home for his long awaited Broadway debut in Take a Banana for the Ride, a hilarious, heartfelt, one man show about laughing through the pain, the importance of having thick skin, and the vengeful pleasures of a Jewish comic having a German dog. This 90 minute performance is the result of a 30 year journey in comedy. A cathartic mix of dangerous jokes, touching family stories and songs that stay with you long after the current falls. No two shows are exactly alike, but each reveals the Roastmaster General at his most unguarded, raw, reflective and ridiculously funny.
Tony Ortiz [00:45:31]:
It'll be your most emotional night at the theater since Mufasa died in the Lion King. And that's a great little synopsis because that's what the show was. The set decoration was great, had like a bunch of picture frames, like really large picture frames, different sizes, just hanging up behind him with the all the lights off in the back so it looked like there was like a black velvet curtain or wall that all these frames were hung up on, but they were just suspended in the air and they were actual screens. And throughout the show he's speaking about his childhood and his dad and his mom and his sister, his other family members, his dogs, his grandfather, so on and so forth. And as he's telling anecdotes of all different types of stories from his life, he flashes photos on the screen, which is really cool. You get a much deeper insight into him as a person, as, you know, the man and comic that he became. And if you know me, I love the how the sausage was made type of stories. So that was definitely a real treat.
Tony Ortiz [00:46:41]:
It did get emotionally heavy at times. He spoke about his battle with cancer, colon cancer, his very close friends in comedy passing away like Norm MacDonald and told stories about him. Bob Saget told stories about him. Gilbert Gottfried told stories about him as well. Every once in a while he'll break out into hilarious songs, like made up songs, which is pretty cool. He also had a couple musicians with him there on stage. One was a pianist, one was a guitarist. One of my favorite anecdotes actually from the show was related to Judy Blume, which I have broken down.
Tony Ortiz [00:47:21]:
Either her master class, I forget what it was, or her documentary, I think it was the documentary. I broke down here in the podcast and I just always found her like so cool. Like I like want to be Judy Blume's friend. You know, and there's a dope anecdote that Jeff shared and, you know, speaking about his family, where his grandmother started a catering hall in Jersey. And I had known that his family was in the catering business and had a catering business just from like his appearances on Rogan and, you know, different shows. But what was dope about it is he spoke about how, you know, it was a rare thing for a woman to own a business, let alone a successful one back then. And like what a badass his grandmother was for, for being able to start that and how the whole family got involved in it. And then eventually his father took it over and it was like the family business, he worked there, his sister worked there.
Tony Ortiz [00:48:17]:
You know, different family members work there. And it was like a known catering hall that did a bunch of events in Jersey, like bar mitzvahs and weddings. And Judy Blume references it in one of her novels, which I think it was, because when he said it, it sounded familiar. And I think it was the hey, God, it's me, Margaret. But there's a line in there that says something to the effect of that every girl's dream in Jersey is to have her sweet 16 at such and such catering, which I forget the name, but it was that catering hall, his family's catering, all that she referenced, like, that's how known it was within the community. I thought that was a dope tie in Judy Bloom. And for as heavy as it was at times, you know, he's a comics comic, so he make. He made light of it and it was extremely funny as well.
Tony Ortiz [00:49:13]:
It's a very, very balanced show, but very self reflective. And it was sad to see, to hear his mom's passing when he was like still a teenager and his father raising them and his mother's father, his grandfather moving in with them to help raise them, and then his father dying and him pretty much just living with his grandfather, slash best friend, slash roommate, until he eventually passes away. But like many, many years later, that was like a cool relationship that he broke down there. A ring, actually, this metal ring that Jeff always wears was his grandfather's. And his grandfather got that when working on a Navy ship. If I remember correctly, it was like a Nazi Navy ship that they had to break down when it came, like onshore here in the US I think I might be mixing up the details a bit, but he was part of a group of folks that for whatever reason had to break down the ship. And one thing he did was take like a metal Bolt from the ship and then pretty much like flattened it out and shaped it into a ring, which he always wore. It's kind of like a you to the Nazis type of thing.
Tony Ortiz [00:50:27]:
And then he eventually pass that on to. To Jeff. And to Jeff. It's a way to remember his grandfather, obviously, but also to always be resilient. And it was a great showman. We had a. We had a really good time. My only regret, because towards the end, he did this thing where he walked through the crowd and he literally told anybody who wants to get ro.
Tony Ortiz [00:50:49]:
He started, like, roasting people. And then he was like, anybody who wants to get roasted, just stand up. And then when I pass by, I'll roast you. You. I was like, at the edge of my seat, I was like, I gotta get up. But I didn't like an. Like a. So I definitely regret that.
Tony Ortiz [00:51:05]:
And afterwards I was just thinking, you know, all the shoulda, coulda, wouldas, and, you know, how cool would it have been to get roasted by the roast master himself? It was literally right. All I had to do is stand up for my seat. I had to do nothing else but stand up, and I didn't fucking do it. So let that be a lesson, kids. And then after the fact, I was reminded of this insight that I got from the book Tools by Phil Stutz that I actually implemented in real life once when I was in a similar situation when I went to see Ari Shafir at New York Comedy or at the Stand. I think it was years ago, and I was in the middle of reading that book at the time when we went to go see him. And we're just like a regular, you know, 15 minute, 20 minute spot. But one of the tools in the book is to never.
Tony Ortiz [00:51:56]:
You're, like, riddled with doubt or anything like that, or hesitant about something. Picture yourself in your deathbed and ask yourself what you wish you would have done in that moment if you had a second chance. So that was in my head at that time. And normally I would have bitched out and just stayed seated, but I actually, that helped me summon up the courage, I guess, to, like, get up. And then after Ari performed, he was like, sitting by the bar. Then I just, like, went over to him and introduced myself, said, what's up? And it was extremely awkward. But, you know, I got to give him a pound and say that I enjoy his comedy. I'm a fan, and that's pretty much it.
Tony Ortiz [00:52:41]:
But I did it is the point. But then this time around, I guess it's been a while since I read the book, but I didn't have that tool floating around in my mind and wish I did. But regardless, it was a dope experience that my wife and I both enjoyed. And I actually scored the tickets on the Broadway Lottery site, which if anybody's not familiar, check out the website lottery.broadwaydirect.com and it's pretty much self explanatory, you guys can figure it out. But I actually did record like a how to video like how to get these tickets and it's either on my website or on YouTube somewhere. If I find it I will link to it, but if I don't, I'll at least link to the website folks to check out. And essentially they put random shows on there on a daily basis and you have a chance to fill out your name, your email address and you enter this lottery and if you're picked, you get an email saying, hey, you won the tickets, do you want to purchase them? And it's like steeply discounted tickets that are for the show the next day usually, but you can get, you know, two. Like in our case it was two we were in the second row orchestra for.
Tony Ortiz [00:53:57]:
I forget how much it was but like under 100 bucks for both when normally those tickets are, you know, a couple hundred or 100 plus at least each. So definitely check that out. And of course if you get the chance to go see the show any which way, Jeff Ross's Take a Banana for the Ride on Broadway, I highly recommend it. In this episode's iteration of Goats doing Goat Shit, the segment where I like to big up and give flowers to folks that go above and beyond, especially within the creative space. I'd like to induct the creators of South Park, Matt Stone and Trey Parker. And here is why. South Park's creators I'm reading from directly from a Wealth Expanded post which I'll link to in the episode notes. They did a great breakdown of exactly what happened here.
Tony Ortiz [00:54:58]:
South Park's creators just started the biggest bidding war in TV history. Paramount and HBO were ready to bankrupt themselves for ownership of the hit show. But when the deal hit 1.5 billion, that's billion with a bean, these guys pulled off a move no creator had ever dared. Here's the full story. For over 25 years, South park dominated late night comedy. The show built Comedy Central into a powerhouse, generated billions in revenue, created a global fan base that spans generations. But in 2019, something happened that would change everything. Paramount made a critical mistake.
Tony Ortiz [00:55:41]:
They licensed south park to rival HBO Max their own Streaming service wasn't ready yet. And now their biggest asset was making money for a competitor. That's when the real drama began. When the HBO Max deal expired in June 2025, streaming giants went to war. Paramount desperately wanted their crown jewel back. HBO Max fought to keep their cash cow. And Netflix started making aggressive moves. The beating war was about to get ugly.
Tony Ortiz [00:56:13]:
Offers escalated rapidly. At one point, a 10 year deal was pitched for $3 billion. That's $300 million per year, which is 10 times what most hit shows earn. But Trey Parker and Matt Stone weren't satisfied. The creators watched as executives fought over their baby, Skydanced with buying Paramount and started meddling. They wanted shorter deals, lower prices, and more control. That's when Parker and Stone did something unprecedented. And this is why they are being inducted into the Spontaneity Goats doing Goat Shit list.
Tony Ortiz [00:56:52]:
They hired the most aggressive lawyers in Hollywood, Stuart Leiner and Brian Friedman. They prepared a nuclear option. They sued both Paramount and Skydance, and they publicly shamed them for sabotaging negotiations. The message was very clear, respect us or lose everything. And that power move worked. The executives panicked. They delayed South Park's season 27 premiere. Comic Con was days away.
Tony Ortiz [00:57:21]:
Parker and Stone would have a global stage to air the grief. And suddenly everyone wanted to make a deal. So they stuck to their guns, right? They didn't let the big money bag, the biggest money bag any TV show has ever seen. They didn't let that sway them. Because what's it about? What I always harp on. Ownership, creative control, keep your ip. So continuing here. And the creators weren't done flexing.
Tony Ortiz [00:57:46]:
They demanded something no TV creator had achieved. Not just money, not just episodes. They wanted nearly 50% of all streaming revenue through their joint venture. So these are the details of the final deal. 1.5 billion with a B over five years. $300 million annually, 50 new episodes, global streaming rights. And that revenue share of that, that 50% revenue share, that could literally double all those numbers that I just mentioned. And because of that, I'm officially inducting Matt Stone and Trey Parker into the Spun Today Goats Doing Goat Shit list.
Tony Ortiz [00:58:31]:
And that, folks, was episode 288 of the Spot Today podcast. Thank you very much for taking the time to listen. I appreciate each and every one of you and ask that you stick around for one more minute just so you can hear a few different ways you can help support this podcast if you so choose. Your support means a ton. And you might be in the market already for something that I have an affiliate link to@spuntery.com support that could save you some money. So here are a few ways you can help support this show and I'll check you guys out next time. Peace. What's up folks? Tony here.
Tony Ortiz [00:59:06]:
I hope you're enjoying the Spun Today podcast as much as I enjoy producing it for you. Here are a few ways you can help support the show. You can help support the Sponsor Day podcast by shopping my Merch section. Go to spunterday.com support and navigate to the Merch section. Here you'll find the iconic Podcast versus Anybody tee, which comes in many different color schemes and all different sizes. There are a bunch of other designs available as well, including writing themed shirts, cycling shirts, and the classic Dominican Escudo, and much, much more. And if T shirts aren't your thing, all designs also come in pullover hoodies, zip up hoodies, sweatshirts and tank tops. You can also shop the Spontane coffee mugs which has the spontane logo on one side and the tagline that I end every episode with on the other, which is Start taking steps in the general direction of your dreams.
Tony Ortiz [01:00:02]:
Once again, for all Spun Today Merch, go to spunteray.com support and navigate to the Merch section. Another great way for you to help support the show and also take care of your foundational health is by going to spuntai.com forward/support and clicking on my affiliate link for Athletic Greens aka AG1. One scoop of AG1 in your water helps to fill nutrient gaps, promote gut health, and support whole body vitality. Just one serving delivers a comprehensive blend of nine products, a multivitamin, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, adaptogens and more, all of which work together for the strongest foundation for better health. I personally take AG1 and really appreciate the peace of mind of knowing that my foundational health bases are covered even when I know I'm not eating as healthily as I should be. Also, by using my affiliate link@ sponsaid.com support you will get one free year of vitamin D3 as well as five AG1 travel packs absolutely for free. And go to spontane.com forward/support and click on the banner for AG1. If you're a fellow creative, a cool way that you can help support the Spun Today podcast and actually be part of the podcast is by filling out my five question questionnaire located@spun2date.com questionnaire.
Tony Ortiz [01:01:25]:
Here you'll find five open questions related to your craft, your art, what inspires you to create, what type of unrelated hobbies you're into and what motivates you to get your work done. You can choose to remain anonymous or plug your website and your work. And once you submit your questionnaire, I read your responses on a future episode of the Spun Today podcast. It's completely free at no cost to you. And what I like to say about it is that if your responses could potentially spark inspiration in someone else, why not share that spuntoday.com questionnaire the sponsor Day newsletter is available to each and every one of my listeners absolutely for free. All you have to do is go to spuntoday.com subscribe and drop in your email address. What I'm going to do is brighten up everybody's least favorite day of the week by delivering five curated things within my weekly newsletter. Every Monday at noon you're gonna receive a Photo of the Week, a recommended Podcast of the Week.
Tony Ortiz [01:02:26]:
I listen to tons of podcasts from an array of varied interests. I cherry pick the very best ones so that you can check them out. I also share a video of the Week which can be anything from a tasty recipe to a dope rap battle to an enlightening TED Talk. I also share a Quote of the Week and finally for my fellow wordsmiths out there, a word of the week so that you can step up your vocab again. This curated list is yours absolutely free by going to spun today.com subscribe and dropping in your email address and you can unsubscribe at any time. Again, go to spuntoday.com subscribe, drop in your email address and you get the very next one. And as always folks, substitute the mysticism with hard work and start taking steps in the general direction of your dreams. Thanks for listening.
Tony Ortiz [01:03:33]:
I love you Aiden. I love you Daddy. I love you Grayson.